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#1: m2 (mercymercy) on Oct 3, 2008 [SPOILER]

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What the H.E.double hockey sticks is that?

I took the liberty of adding the annotation "contains profanity" to the title. I was tempted to unpublish it, since it is also an amazing boring puzzle, lacking white space as it does.

Try changing your name to 'Philistine'. Go and read a few books, visit a few galleries and perhaps understanding may grow...but I shan't hold my breath

Come on now, people, be nice! I hate this "puzzle" as much as anyone else, but... oh well. People have their opinions. Just ask Tom.

This is how we learn, by exposing our views for other people to respond to. What does the figure at the bottom represent? And this puzzle is more challenging and entertaining if you solve it as if the clues in each row and column were in no particular order. Oh-- that's not what I would call profanity, I think that's vulgarity. It's interesting to consider the differences among profanity, vulgarity, and obscenity: terms often used interchangeably and without distinction. If this puzzle makes us think about that, it has done more for us than simply divert us for a while. I have been pleasantly surprised to find what interesting things people have found a way to say with the puzzles they have constructed, and I thank all of you for that.

Real mature Adam. Attack someone who isn't in the dialogue, who you don't know was going to even read the comments, much less join in. I guess, in your petty little mind, the only attack you can win is the one you fire at someone's back, hoping they won't turn around and catch you. Well, I did, and once again, you've made yourself the fool.

I read few of the comments on these puzzles, but I've read enough to see you're a generally disliked person. I see why. You're a hateful ass who brings it on himself.

So, Mr. Holier-than-thou, since you saw fit to trash me before I even commented on the puzzle, you must already know my opinion. What is it? Please, bedazzle me with your divine insight.

OMG, Tom, you are hilarious!!! I am laughing so hard! I said "people have their opinions. Just ask Tom." And you, for whatever reason, assumed 2 things. #1: that I was talking about YOU. Are you the only Tom in the world? It reminds me of the Carly Simon song, "You're So Vain" (you probably think this song is about you).

#2, You assumed that I was attacking you (even if I did happen to be referring to you (which you guessed right). I didn't "attack" you, as you so cleverly put it. I said you have an opinion. If you feel so "vain" as to take a remark I make stating innocently that you have an opinion, and make it into a personal affront, then you truly are a vain, sad soul.

Thanks for the lovely comment about what you think I am, Tommie Boy. Excellent language for a mature, sophisticated, "non hypocrite" as you surely are. :-)

God still loves you, even if you read my words in this forum or any other!

ouch! I would say it wasn't behind your back as he left it there for you to read Tom....and you read it. Look at all the drama this little puzzle has created. Interesting.

Was it even an attack on him? Not at all. And yes, like you said, Jan, I didn't say it on the chat forum, which he can only read if he happens to click on the chat button. Like you said, it was in plain sight, on a puzzle comment. An innocent remark.

Adam, unless you've been involved in a very recent argument with someone else named Tom, to whom that comment would be "appropriate", and which would make your comment QUITE the coincidence, it's obvious it was directed at me. It's equally obvious it was meant as sarcasm because I respect the right of other people to have an opinion. (By making that statement in a mocking sarcastic tone, you imply that you DON'T respect that right in others. Yeah, that's something you want to brag about!!)

Don't play the stupid card and try to pass it off as the high road. Everybody who's read these comments, and who's familiar with the other argument, knows it was directed at me. You just dig your hole deeper by pretending otherwise.

I suppose I could now say this comment is directed at ANOTHER Adam, but I won't make such a ludicrous claim. Unlike you, I'm not afraid to identify the person to whom my comments are directed. AND, unlike you, I don't direct comments at a person until I know they're around to hear it.

I'll ignore the rest of your babble until you find something intelligent to say. I'm not holding my breath for that to ever happen, so we're probably done.

Jan, it WAS "behind my back" because, at the time of his post, there had been none from me. There was no indication I had been reading these comments, or that I intended to do so, or that I had even seen the puzzle, or even would for a very long time. (There are over 1700 puzzles I have yet to see, much less solve. And of the ones I've solved, very rarely have I looked at the comments.) For all he knew, I might never have seen the comment, a fact that may have made the asinine shot all the more enticing to him.

As far as the "drama", sad to say, the bulk of it hasn't been caused by the puzzle itself, so much as Adam's childish need to criticize someone he didn't know was looking, and bring an argument from one puzzle into another one.

I refuse to get dragged in to another long argument with him. The puzzle is provocative, and I'd much prefer to hear comments about IT than engage in a pissing match over Adam's immaturity.

For the record, I don't like the puzzle. I have mixed feelings about modern art, it depends on the individual piece, so I have no strong feelings either way on his sentiment. But I see no reason to bring in profanity (or perhaps, David, vulgarity) if it isn't essential, and I don't see that it is in this instance. Plus I just didn't find the puzzle particularly attractive. AND, like all other puzzles with heavy red/green overlays, my color blindness , while slight, is enough to make the puzzle more challenging than it ought to be. (If I have to solve a puzzle of a little red wagon and a toy fire truck on the lawn, I'll probably be nursing a headache for days after.)

Blah blah blah, yak yak yak. That's all you ever do. Keep it up!

Man we never get bored with our man Monkey now that he was in peace with everyone ( and doing great) Adam find someone else to "play" with and he's not about to let Tom have the last word....


So funny when you looking at it from the outside, its like my own semi-private reality show

Thanks Adam your "I'll say whatever the **** I want" attitude keep me entertain all week long.

Being one of the WC judge, one of the most lucrative puzzler and puzzle maker wasn't enought you have to be the King absolute of those forum to, man your no longuer just a monkey your KING KONG himself


:) lol

I'm not looking for the last word. He wants it, he can have it. His psychosis relies on it. Who am I to deny him his therapy.

I'm fairly new to these PBN mini-blogs, but with the argument over on 3408, and what I've already witnessed here, it's apparent monkeyputz picks fights just for the sake of doing so. It doesn't matter if he has an actual point to make. Picking the fight is enough for him.

What a pathetic waste of carbon.

Wow, what a mature, adult-like comment. You never cease to amaze me, with your utterly infantile hypocrisy.

GOD LOVES YOU REGARDLESS OF HOW YOU ACT.

And yes, his delusions of self-importance are an ongoing source of entertainment.

Sylvain... how come you mentioned me saying whatever I want, when Tom has done the same thing, if not worse? Just wondering why you didn't just happen to mention his name instead of mine. LOL

maybe cause he feels comfortable with you, after all we have all had a chance to get to know you on a different level :)

If not worse??? Boy, your fantasy world takes a new turn every minute, Adam.

Sylvain probably only mentioned you because you're the star of this little reality show. Or is it a sitcom? I'm not sure which anymore. All I know is you're the star, just like you need to be!! I'm happy to play a supporting role.

I'm off to bed. You get the last word again. I promise that when I return tomorrow, I'll give you all the attention you deserve. None.

will this bickering ever stop??

I think it just did. He said he wouldn't comment anymore (in a way). Or at least until his small brain can generate any more baseless, hypocritical remarks. He always seems to find some.

I mention you cause I know by experience where all this can lead and that you will never let go. Its not that I think that Tom right in this, but since I know you a little better than I know him I was tempt of kidding you a little

It was nothing bad it just make me laught to see that Tom and you go relatively the same road that we all dance a couple of month back with this kind of "pissing war" that in the end never solve anything.

As for the discussion on puzzle 3408 I really think that Jan should lock it and archeive it. We are now past the 100 comment and nothing was solve and more than that dispute and meaningless argumentation came out of it. If you check I never really put my two cent in that discussion (except for the Jedi joke I had to insert) since I truly believe that my faith only concern myself. I don't say I'm rigth I won't take side on the whole God exist thing, cause my believe and my way of exercing my faith are my business and my business alone.

History ( pas and recent) show so much war or conflict base only on someone idea that His faith was better than the other one faith. the catholic crusade of the mid-ages, the Israel-Palestine never-ending conflict, the american war on terrorism ( wich is more of a catholic vs muslim war) etc.

So I'm not saying that you or Tom or anyone else who voice the opinion or faith in the 3408 topic were rigth or wrong, the fact is that if this is how this person choose to live his ( or her ) faith in God ( or in the absent of God) its their personal choice. You can preach all you want on those subject, the fact at the end remain that it all about what you choose to believe in that going to be the right and only good way for you in your mind.

We have the chance here in north america to have no real retaliation again personnal choice of faith. We have catholic, baptism, Jehova withness, Mormon, Jew, muslim and many more I won't right here cause my point is well illustrate already. And in the end if you are true to your system of believe and faithful to what you think is the right way of living is that not the basic of all faith to live in peace with other and ourself?

Their is no final answer in this discussion 'cause to simplify all that its all come down to a quote from a favorite tv showe of mine.

-why do you refuse to let go agent Mulder??
-CAUSE I WANT TO BELIEVE

that it your faith is base on what you decide to believe in and the way you decide to believe in it, and that my friend can not be wrong cause it your own choice and your doing it for yourself.

I wont comment back on that subject this was more of a fact and a essay on why we should stop the discussion on 3408 and stop those ideological war than a true comment so please don't ask me to prononce myself on what my faith and believe are you ain't going to get any answer. I want to believe that we as adult can live in a world where people are diffrent than we are without being inferior or superior than us for being diffrent or for thinking diffrently

thank you all for reading this way to long "comment"

:)

Thanks, Sylvain. I kinda figured that since you know me, you would have used my name instead of you-know-who's. Thanks for your "essay," as you like to call it. It makes perfect sense to me, and I respect your point of view.

I kind of want Jan to archive that discussion, as well. The problem is, since it's on a puzzle's comments, and not a true forum, I don't know if he can.

I loved that King Kong joke, by the way. Thanks for not taking sides, (even though in your mind I am sure you of course already have). It doesn't matter either way. I respect your opinions, since I have gotten to know you.

Lets actually talk about this puzzle!

I have actually heard of "art" pieces with feces on them. I had one professor in college whose student art show (for his masters degree) had one such painting. the artist also was covered in the disgusting stuff and was screaming profanities during the whole show. It was supposed to be a social commentary. I dislike these. I personally think art should rise above the sewers, literally in this case.

I love reading Dave Barry's column because he often calls out these so called art pieces and is really funny. I remember one article in particular where he talked about an "artist" who went into a museum where he had a show or something. He grabbed a blank canvas, poured glue on it and then dumped a dirty vacuum bag onto it. This he called "art."

Personally I can't imagine this stuff being sold or valued in 10 years. To try being edgy they (these "artists") miss the whole point of art in my opinion. Art is to be inspiring, emotion evoking (which, granted, feces would create emotion or at least, stench), thought provoking, and though some may disagree, require much thought and effort on the part of the artist.

Wow, thanks for that nice commentary, Telly. I would trust your judgment about art anytime. In fact, probably about most things. You seem to have it together, with a solid head on your shoulders. You do excellent work on here. I would love to see some of your real work. (I am assuming you do real art, since you talked about you having had a college art professor).

telly... i've experienced similar things in the theatre - there was a play i remember in college where one guy just stood there opening a door and then slamming it shut over and over for about 10 minutes. there was constant yelling and cussing, lights going on and off, and one guy even relieved himself right there on the stage. it was supposed to be some remark on chaos.

i've taken many art classes and there is always a discussion on what exactly art is, and can we call things like what you discribed with the vacuum bag, "art?" is art a process or a product?

Yeah, and then there was this guy who just splashed paint all over canvases, and... whoops, wait a minute, Jackson Pollack probably my single favorite artist, and fifty years after his death his art was not only "sold and valued" but one of his splash paintings sold for a price of $140 million dollars, making it the most expensive painting in the world.

Obviously not everything done in the name of art is great, but I don't see how telly can say that these feces art works aren't "thought provoking". Good grief, people are still talking about it. I don't see how anyone working as an artist can help starting to wonder what the heck is up with the concept of "art" and the business that has grown up around it. These kinds of art raise questions about the process of art. Why shouldn't they?

Is painting with feces really so weird, compared to, say, the urine of cattle that have been feed on mangos? That's how "Indian yellow" used to be made. Or painting with deadly arsenic? That's "Paris green". "Cochineal red" was made from crushed bugs. And then there is "Tyrian purple" which the wikipedia says is made from the "fresh mucous secretion from the hypobranchial gland of a medium-sized predatory sea snail". Dudes, everything is made from something. Healthy humans produce feces every day. They are part of life. Why shouldn't they be involved in art?

There is a place for everything. The bathroom toilet alone is reserved for those bodily functions. They belong nowhere else. Granted, certain colors or products are made from some undesirable substances, but they are refined and purified into vivid, pretty colors or useful products to beautify and enhance our lives.

The blatant use of excrement on a canvas is neither refined, uplifting, nor beautiful (although thought-provoking for sure). Those manufactured colors possess neither the putrid odor nor the offensive quality that random feces/urine display.

Sylvain #22, Good essay. Long yes, but so have been some of mine over on 3408.

Just to put a period on that part of the discussion, as a relative newcomer to the comments part of these puzzles, I didn't experience the, ummm, pleasure(?) of learning about Adam's "debate" techniques when you and others did. I regret you all had to sit through it again while I figured him out, but I now have, and can reply or ignore him accordingly. It's no surprise to anyone by now that I'm combative when I know (yes Adam, KNOW) that I'm in the right, but still, there reaches a point when enough is enough. I've reached that point. Only Adam knows if he has.

Jane #25, and everyone thereafter, thank you for getting this string back onto the actual puzzle. Other than the inevitable reply Adam will have to the above paragraph, to which I will NOT be responding, on the puzzle is where the discussion will stay.

But now that it's there, I have little more to say. Like I said above, I have no strong feelings either way on modern art. It depends on the piece. I'm liberal enough to defend as "art" even those that offend me and that I would personally question, but it's not an issue I'm passionate about.

One quick question to Jan. Are you male? Based on the name I had assumed female, but Adam in #24 said "he". I only ask so that I make sure to use the correct pronoun in the future.

So now you are talking "about" me and not "to" me? LOL
Don't worry, I won't sink to your level. I will address comments directly to know if needed. You keep saying things like "I am not going to respond to Adam anymore," blah blah blah, etc., etc., etc, yet it always seems you just can't keep your fingers off the keyboard! Amazing!

The only thing you have been right about (that you "KNOW," as you mistakenly mentioned) is that you have a right to an opinion. As we all do. You have been extremely combative, regardless of the point being made, as anyone can attest to. And that's fine. The problem comes down to you admitting or not admitting that you are "just as bad as I am." The evidence is there. Don't turn a blind eye. Own up to your mistakes, and this whole thing will be over.

Yes, I'm male. My parents were German immigrants and gave me a German name.

One think that has always fascinated me is this strange division we make between the "clean" and the "dirty". For example, consider clearing the table after a delicious meal. While you're clearing the table, the gunk sticking to the plate are definitely disgusting, something you'd rather not touch. Yet, minutes earlier this was yummy food that you were scraping off your plate to eat. What happened in those few minutes to make such a dramatic transformation? Obviously the food is still pretty much the same, but it has changed categories in your mind, from yummy to disgusting. Spread it as compost over your garden, and it will soon turn back into something yummy, it's "refined" again.

You admit that there are processes by which filth can be turned into art. Well, there have to be, otherwise the world would just fill up with filth. But apparently the process used by the feces artist was not sufficient to "refine" the substance, whereas the process used to produce Indian Yellow pigment was.

I think that these are interesting issues. I don't see why art can't explore them.

I will agree with your 3rd paragraph entirely.

I did not like this "puzzle". I do a lot of these and really enjoy this site. I have never posted a negative comment about any of them (I think) as I respect others expressing themselves even when I didn't like it. If I were running the show, I would yank this "puzzle" as it contains language not suitable for the younger solvers. Just my humble opinion.

Back when I was originally developing this the software for this site, I spent some time thinking about how I was going to handle offensive subject matter. Frankly, I was expecting much more of it, and much more offensive. In my experience trying to censure such stuff can cause more problems then it is worth. Inevitably you get people "testing the limits", trying to post all sorts of stuff just to see what they can get away with. Maybe an offensive image can be hidden in an innocent image, etc. When you do that, you start getting more offensive stuff instead of less. You spend all your time searching for it. It's not worth it. Plus there is always the freedom of speech aspect, which is important to me (I actually was the ACLU's star witness in "Cyberspace vs Engler" the case that overthrew Michigan's Internet censorship law in 1999).

So I decided to ask people to label potentially offensive material, but I don't censor for content.

That does mean that this site is not necessarily 100% safe for children. Though I think any kid who can solve this puzzle is probably already reasonably familiar with the word in it.

Well said, Jan. Excellent points made. I, for one, will never argue against freedom of speech. And although I personally think this was a complete waste of a puzzle, regardless of the word it contains, he/she is entitled to post it.

Jan, now that the discussion has turned its focus to the puzzle, I'm in full agreement with Adam's last post.

As the star witness in the Michigan case, you're certainly more familiar with censorship laws than I am, especially this particular case. But as an ACLU member, I've read about such cases and my understanding is that the cases rest more on providers (and governments?) limiting which sites the public can access, based on content, than on site owners censoring material on their own site. If I'm right about that, you may have more legal leeway than you think you do. (Though the other censorship headaches you describe would still exist.)

I participate in some of the blogs of my local newspaper and they routinely censor comments that break their rules, the particulars of which don't matter at the moment. I'm not aware of any legal problems they've faced with that practice. Their site, their rules. And this is your site, your rules.

But having decided to not censor for content, I'm glad the artists have censored themselves, making the puzzles (though perhaps not the discussions) more comfortable for everyone.

Jan, I agree that the process, in my opinion, should be more refined...than feces. And while some, like you, love Jackson Pollock, I personally don't care for his work. However, I would not say that he is not an artist. His work did create a new way of thinking about art that I think is valuable and I've seen some of his paintings in museums and can see why people like them. Their size is immense. I personally like more representational art, but that's not to say that it's the only type of art that can be called art.
Also, by making your site basically censorship free is good. I like that labels are put on possibly offensive puzzles, thus giving the solver the choice. I would hate for my freedom to choose to be taken from me. So, thank you. And yes, there are some puzzles I haven't looked at because the labels are there.
Adam, I'm glad you're in agreement with me and helped to resolve the issue (of feces, etc) before I was able to read these comments. And yes, I did take art in college, illustration actually, maybe one day my stuff will be published so that you can see it. ;)

Jan, I looked up information on that case, and read your entire declaration, (including both exhibits) and wow!

I was very surprised to see Mark Conger (aruba) on there as one of the primary posters. Is that how you met him? And he then followed you here to this website? Just wondering.

Tom is correct. The constitutional guarantee of free speech has nothing at all to do with this site, as it talks only about censorship by the government. Legally speaking, private businesses and individual are allowed to censor on their own property any way they like. I certainly have the right to censor anything I want o this site. However, my personal ideology gets in the way of that.

I used to be involved in several non-profit organizations that ran on-line discussion forums in the days when those kinds of forums were rare, back before there was an Internet. I did first meet Mark on one of those.

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hey, I think shit talker is pretty funny... but I have had a few alcoholic beverages before coming to this opinion.

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This is a boring puzzle with nothing of creativity and full of vulgarity.

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