#1: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 3, 2009
So I have been doing puzzle on this site on and off for years. I love PBN's. But I am terrified to make puzzles on here. I often check comments and am astonished by the rudeness. I mean some of comments are just down right mean. Are there other people out there that are feeling the same thing?#2: doreen (doreenfanning) on Dec 3, 2009
I just get sick and tired of the rude comments. It doesn't stop me from creating puzzles, but I do feel bad for people who make puzzles and then there are almost for sure rude comments if the puzzle doesn't fit someone's expectations. I don't know why it has to be that way. I have left the site for periods of time in the past when I got sick of it. I often simply don't read the comments because I don't want to see the rude comments.#3: Cro-Magnon (Hermit) on Dec 3, 2009
So, yes, you are not alone, and yes, I wish it wasn't so. It wasn't this way when I first started on the site. At times it detracts from my enjoyment of the site -- the rest of the time I just ignore it.
I'm fairly sure this topic has come up before, but I'm going to get in on this early, so that there is plenty of time for people to disagree with me. I say that because I think I have a minority opinion around here (on many topics, it's seems), and that the majority of people will not agree with me. This is partly hunch, partly reading between the lines, and partly a result of reading through many forum and puzzle comment threads.#4: Adam Nielson (monkeyboy) on Dec 3, 2009
My opinion is that, yes, there certainly are comments that I would call rude. Some of them may even be posted by me (???); I haven't been directly told that I was rude, but once again it's just a hunch. I honestly try not to be rude, I really am not a rude person, but I do tend to be sarcastic and that can come across as rudeness to some people. I also, personally, have a tendency to be brutally honest, and brutal honesty can easily be misconstrued. (**EDIT: Please see #11 below for the "Whoops" amendment). If I have been rude, I personally don't mind being told I've crossed the line (doesn't mean I'll agree with you, it depends on the situation, but I support open discussion).
So, now we come to the point where I'll probably get myself in trouble, but I'm just going to state my honest opinion. There may be some comments that can be perceived as rude, but is there a rule that only sweet and positive comments can be posted? Do we all have to hug and sing songs together? Sometimes a puzzle is just plain awful, and what really is so wrong with saying you don't like it? I'm not saying it's okay to be a jerk, and I understand the value of constructive criticism, but I personally don't see anything wrong with saying that a particular puzzle is boring, awful, a waste of time, whatever.
I am sometimes astonished by volumes of comments that can seem so saccharine. I mean, a person can't honestly love EVERY puzzle on the site, can they? I don't know, maybe some people do. But, if there are only positive, cloyingly sweet comments allowed, then things start to seem almost phony and false. It's hard for me to explain. And, as usual, I've babbled on and on. Sorry.
So, let the lambasting begin. I'm a big boy, I can take it.
Thank you for stating what a lot of people on here feel, Cro. I completely understand what you mean. Don't worry, they aren't really talking about you.#5: Teresa K (fasstar) on Dec 4, 2009
There are really only a few people on here who post negative comments, and everyone knows who they are (yes, some are more extreme in their comments). Most everyone else either says nothing, or posts positive comments. On puzzles that are very fun to solve, or that have a great image, I (as do many others) praise them. They deserve it.
But, just like you, Cro, I tend to be "brutally honest" and if a puzzle is terrible (or any other number of negative adjectives) I let that be known. I sometimes do it subtly, sometimes more politely but directly, and other times in an overbearing manner. Most of the time I make a joke.
Then there are those out there who literally praise every puzzle. And, like you mentioned, "things start to seem almost phony and false." And, just like the other group, everyone knows who they are, too.
Which is better? To tell the truth when a puzzle merits criticism, or to lie to someone in the same instance and build false hope, which fosters further puzzles of the same caliber?
People may say, "don't do the puzzles if you know who the creator is and you don't like their style." Yet at the same time, those people who don't care for honest assessments of puzzles need not read the comments, as mentioned above by doreen.
Here is my take on this topic... as long as this site exists, (and Jan allows almost anything to be published as he currently does) there will be people who make horrible, pathetic (or horribly pathetic) puzzles (that Jota so cleverly has identified as "WOTs). And as long as that continues, there will be people who berate them.
I am trying to steer this away from you, Cro, so you don't get attacked by the masses. Leave that to me. I am used to it! :-)
I for one appreciate brutal honesty. It helps to motivate me to make better puzzles.#6: Byrdie (byrdie) on Dec 4, 2009
When someone makes a puzzle that is a waste of time to solve, I appreciate being able to read people's comments to that effect, which helps to save others from wasting their time.
Sometimes puzzle creators can be a little overly sensitive about the remarks of others. The first reaction is to feel defensive. Then you get over it (hopefully) and go on to the next puzzle.
Then there are the truly rude comments from a few individuals. The people who make intentionally rude comments probably have lots of personal problems. Those sad individuals will not garner respect here, only pity. Those insensitive, mean comments can be ignored or confronted, but they are only comments, nothing more.
If someone wants to create a puzzle here and is afraid of negative comments, here's my advice: 1) Solve LOTS of puzzles first so you have a really good idea of what makes solving a puzzle fun. 2) Read Jan's article on how to create a puzzle and follow his guidelines. 3) Read Forum Topic #6. 4) Create your puzzle. 5) Solve it yourself first so you know what others will experience in terms of difficulty and fun. 6) Publish your puzzle. 7) Sit back and enjoy the ride.
I don't know that honesty has to be "brutal" but it certainly can be to the point. And I'm sure I've been guilty of both.#7: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 4, 2009
Jan's policy of allowing everyone to post puzzles and not putting controls on poor ones is a good policy. It builds confidence and allows everyone to build skills. Unfortunately, that means there are going to be some persons who post puzzles simply for the sake of doing so without regard to quality and content.
I think Teresa hits the nail on the head. Take the time to work on your puzzles, don't just post patterns and puzzles with no white areas and you'll be fine. I've certainly proved that puzzles can be a little rough in appearance and still be good puzzles. But with time and working on my skills, they're getting better.
It also doesn't hurt to have thick skin. As Cro and Adam stated, not everybody is going to like every puzzle every time. Some of the people who love hip-hop music don't like classical and vice-versa. If everybody doesn't like a puzzle, maybe it should be viewed as an opportunity to take note of what isn't liked and to incorporate that information into future puzzles.
For myself, I guess I'll make an effort to be honest without being brutal.
Hope that encourages you to go ahead and create puzzles.
I am going to be brutally honest, I find that, "I'm just being honest" reason a bunch of crap. As was pointed out, you don't have to comment on puzzles. And there is a difference between being honest and being mean to be mean. It takes effort to go out of your way to be 'brutally honest' and make a comment. If you hate it that much why waste any more of your time making a rude comment about it? The only point is to make the person who made it feel bad. Because constructive criticism is made with decency. If the goal of your comment is to get the creator to work harder to make a quality puzzle then the most effective way to do that is to offer guidance. Being a jerk is just being a jerk.#8: doreen (doreenfanning) on Dec 4, 2009
The entire thing that spurred this, was I was reading the comments on a puzzle that a 10 year old made, and they were basically told that it didn't matter that they were ten or that it was their first puzzle, but it was a piece of crap and a WOT.
I am not for the stupid pattern puzzles..I hate them and I think they are a waste of time myself. But this site wasn't made to only make me happy. Nor is it here sheerly for any of the other people on here that think they have the right or the duty to be jerks just so that other people might live up to their standards.
I do think that some sort of labeling could be instituted to help categorize the puzzles better. Things could be labeled as a pattern or as a picture or words or numbers. Right now, I am avoiding any puzzle with WC on it because I find that doing puzzles of numbers to be incredibly droll and does not give me a satisfied feeling. But I understand that there is a community of people doing the WC's, and I am not telling them how boring or how much of a WOT they are. They are getting joy out of it, if I don't find it, that lies with me.
I think that part of the problem is an assumption that people will agree as to what a desirable puzzle is, that everyone wants the same thing on this site and that a puzzle can be labeled a "waste of time" by someone and that will be "helpful" in some way to others. And I think that is a false assumption.#9: Teresa K (fasstar) on Dec 4, 2009
Sometimes I am in the mood for a puzzle that at other times I would not want to do. People are here for different reasons and maybe different reasons at different times. Some people are here more for fun, and others to "be somebody" on the site -- solve the most puzzles, post the most posts, to be the most visible, in general be seen as a bigshot on the site,-- and others would rather be invisible.
I think there is room for all of us -- but rudeness does not have to be a part of that. One can be honest without being rude -- those things are not mutually exclusive. One can offer ideas about how to improve puzzles in ways that are genuinely helpful -- it does not have to be done in a rude confrontive way.
If a puzzle isn't your cup of tea, what is wrong with simply not leaving a comment at all? You know, it might be someone else's cup of tea.
As I said before, I often just skip reading the comments when I am not in the mood for all the rudeness. It really does get old quickly, and it makes this site a much less pleasant and supportive place to be.
Cecily, you might be missing out on some great fun. I also do not like working puzzles that are just text or numerals. But guess what - not all the WCPs this week are puzzles of numerals. The theme is numbers, but I made a puzzle that does not have one number in it, but it is very much about numbers. Why don't you try it and see if you think it is fun to solve.#10: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 4, 2009
I will give it a try Teresa! I have done about...maybe 5 of them...3 were numbers and 2 were morse code versions of numbers, which just didn't do it for me.#11: Cro-Magnon (Hermit) on Dec 5, 2009
I still think that a lot of the issues can be handled with categorizing the puzzles, not judging them as worth the time, but simple categories of what they are. But I made another topic about that. :-)
BTW all, thanks for talking with me about this. I might not see eye to eye with several of with the tone of comments, but I do feel better that there is willingness for conversation on the subject.
Whoops, I want a mulligan on a certain matter! I used the term "brutally honest" with a certain idea in mind. I apparently need an English refresher on the term. :-( I enlisted the help of my good friend Webster (the actual paper & ink kind even! I'm so old school):#12: Teresa K (fasstar) on Dec 5, 2009
--brutal - grossly ruthless or unfeeling; unpleasantly accurate and incisive; cruel.
Whoops!! In my head, I didn't equate it with cruel or harsh or rude. I used the term incorrectly. (At least it means I learned something today, that's a good thing). Here's Webster again:
--candid - indicating or suggesting sincere honesty and absence of deception.
--frank - marked by free, forthright, and sincere expression.
That is more the idea I was trying to get across: "frank honesty" or "candid honesty". That is, not with a motive of being mean or hurtful, but an intent to be sincere and to the point. And no, this is NOT backpedalling, just an honest admission that I misspoke. When entering a comment, I have NEVER sat back and thought, "Okay, how can I be mean and a jerk so that I can hurt this person's feelings". Hopefully that clears up my earlier post a bit.
Adam - Thanks, but , dude, don't agree with me, you'll only get me in MORE trouble!! Just joking!!! I personally value your honesty, but I do think that sometimes you can go too far. Your reputation precedes you, I suppose. ;-) This is not an attack against you, just my opinion that, sometimes, you cross over the line. But I don't think you are alone in that regard. It's the sarcasm thing that I think can get me in the most trouble. I am, by nature, very sarcastic, and it can come across as rudeness at times. As far as trying to steer it away from me, I appreciate the sentiment but it is not necessary. If someone thinks I am rude (or whatever), I truly would like to be told. I welcome open discussion on practically any topic, my own behaviour included.
Teresa - I echo Martin's comments: that is great advice to puzzle makers. I also think you and Martin bring up good points about being thin skinned. Other than that, Teresa, your puzzles suck, now go away!!! Just kidding!! LOL (Sorry, couldn't help myself, just being a smartass; I definitely do not think your puzzles suck.)
Cecily – You said “there is a difference between being honest and being mean to be mean”. I absolutely agree. Constructive criticism is a completely valid approach. But I think some of the harsh comments start, possibly, because of frustration over guidance falling on deaf ears. What I mean is that there is plenty of information, guidance, and advice on this site about puzzle creation, yet it sometimes seems like that information is ignored.
Let’s say Fred (just a random name) makes a puzzle. It has no white space, is just a random design, etc. Comments are posted about this, advice and constructive criticism is given. Okay, fine. But then Fred goes on to create 5, 10, or 50 more puzzles that are all the same way. Obviously Fred isn’t interested in making good puzzles. Perhaps Fred just likes playing with the creation utility. Perhaps Fred just likes to see his name on a website. Perhaps Fred just likes to waste other people’s time. Who knows? And to top it all off, 20 more Fred's show up and it continues. From a solver’s perspective, this can get really frustrating.
For those of you who took the time to read through my long rambling, thanks. :-)
Cro, I love your sense of humor.#13: Jan Wolter (jan) on Dec 5, 2009
As for Random Fred, he needs to spend more time on his homework (especially spelling) and less time on webpbn. And his Momma needs to monitor his use (misuse) of the webpbn puzzle creating process. Maybe if she sat next to him while he created puzzles (like other parents here do), she could coach him on how to check spelling first, and how to make a good title, and how to make the puzzle interesting. And if Fred is bored, Fred should come to my house, because there's tons of work that needs to be done here. For some reason, I never have enough time to get my chores done. :-)
I think the important thing to remember that you are talking to real live people, and for the most part people who you know NOTHING about.#14: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 5, 2009
So maybe a puzzle is not too great. Either (A) it is the best effort of someone who isn't very good at it, or (B) it is a throw away from someone who thought it would be funny to quickly scribble up a puzzle.
So maybe you're "brutally honest". It case A, where the author is a kid or someone who for other reasons has difficulty creating good puzzles, then you hurt their feelings. Maybe the go away and don't come back. In case B, where they don't care, your comment has no effect. In either case, other people who might be thinking of submitting puzzles are discouraged.
Or you say something nice and glowing. In case A, they are encouraged and maybe post more bad puzzles. In case B, they think you are an idiot.
Or you say something like "this puzzle would be better if it had more white space." In case A you increase the chance that the next puzzle they post will be a bit better. in case B, they still think you are an idiot. But the real upside is that other users who are thinking of doing puzzles get some positive suggestions about what to do to make a better puzzle.
So I usually take the third course, as being best for everyone. The people interested in making good puzzles get positive feedback, and the people who like thinking other people are idiots get to feel that way too.
An alternate good thing to do is to say something that is neither positive nor negative, but just funny. Then everyone who wasted time on this crummy puzzle gets some fun reading the comments, so it's not such a waste of time after all.
I've never understood this obsession with honesty. It's a virtue, but not a virtue to rule all virtues. Would "making a positive contribution" or "adding to the fun" be a better way to judge the value of a comment?
My perception though is that comments here aren't really usually that bad. I think if you put a reasonable amount of effort into a puzzle, then you'll almost always get glowing, encouraging comments here. Rules are pretty simple: don't do a heart, a smiley face, a flag or a text puzzle. Leave some reasonable amount of white space. Don't use too many colors. Keep working on it until the checker says it is logically solvable. Post. You'll almost certainly get some good encouraging comments. If you are ten, it helps to say that you are ten. I really think that for the most part people are very encouraging of any reasonable effort here.
Jan, I agree that it is so important for people to remember that there are actually living breathing people with feelings on the other end. I think that is something that is all to often forgotten on the internet.#15: Jota (jota) on Dec 5, 2009
Cro, I do not think you were backpedaling and I thoroughly appreciate the time and thought you have put into this conversation. And while I do understand what you are saying about the puzzle creation, and while I do not personally enjoy doing puzzles with no white space that doesn't mean that there are others that might. I just feel it's not my place to tell others what they should or shouldn't enjoy.
To Cecily and Doreen:#16: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 5, 2009
I once heard Bill Cosby say that the most important word children should learn is: "SO". I totally agree.
Imagine a child who has to wear glasses and is made fun of at school; if he could feel and say: "I wear glasses ... so? he will feel good about himself and things will be much better for him.
What I mean is that the fact that someone has an opinion of you doesn't mean that the opinion HAS to be important to you. To me this is a very valuable lesson and we get to practice it on a regular basis.
To me, a puzzle is a problem or enigma that tests the ingenuity of the solver, when there's no problem or enigma it is a "Waste of Time" (WOT). because the time I devote to "solve" puzzles has been wasted. I have the freedom to express my opinion as much as other should have the freedom to ignore my opinion.
This site is a great place to practice the use of the word SO, because most of us don't know each other, we are basically anonymous so we should find no reason to care about what others think of us or our puzzles. Life is complicated, let's try to help ourselves to make the journey as smooth as possible.
I am always astonished when people try to push responsibility for their own behavior over onto the person that is receiving it.#17: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 5, 2009
I am a believer in the 'so' attitude, as I have had several talks with my children about not caring about the kids at school who choose to be cruel towards those other children that are not like them. But I am always amazed that people think it's ok to be mean because the person they are being mean to can 'just ignore' it.
My husband just pointed out a good parallel. Using that justification is like throwing a punch at someone and saying it's ok because they had the opportunity to block it. Teaching someone how to defend themselves is absolutely reasonable, but it does not justify attacking them.#18: doreen (doreenfanning) on Dec 5, 2009
Jota,#19: Jota (jota) on Dec 5, 2009
I said that the negative comments do not prevent me from posting. I am an old lady -- I don't care one iota what anybody thinks of either me or my puzzles. What I am objecting to is the overall tone on this board. It is unduly negative at times.
What I am objecting to is that it seems like almost every time I finish a puzzle that is not very "accomplished," when I open up the comments, there is someone there telling the person that the puzzle is not very good, is boring or is a waste of time. Like clockwork! Over and over and over. Like there are people here who think it is their "job" to point out, sometimes in not very supportive terms, that the puzzles are poor. I get tired of it. It is not necessary. It is not helpful. I'm not sure why some people here feel almost compelled to do this. The atmosphere of the site suffers, in my opinion.
I appreciate Jan's post above. Good points, I think.
You know, I will keep doing puzzles here. I like the site except for this one aspect and I am here to do the puzzles -- good ones and not-so-good ones. As I said, I just skip the comments to avoid all that when I am not in the mood for it. I would not be surprised to hear that people leave the site because of this, though.
I take full responsibility when expressing that a puzzle is a "WOT", that's why my name shows in my comments.#20: Jota (jota) on Dec 5, 2009
Cecily: If by any chance you are implying that I am rude, that would be your opinion and your responsibility, so perhaps it could be useful, for the forum's sake, if you were to document it instead of just saying it.
I personally would not define my self as rude, but of course you could.
Doreen: I totally agree with you on # 18.#21: Jota (jota) on Dec 5, 2009
Jan: You said it brilliantly: "Rules are pretty simple: don't do a heart, a smiley face, a flag or a text puzzle. Leave some reasonable amount of white space. Don't use too many colors. Keep working on it until the checker says it is logically solvable. Post."#22: Adam Nielson (monkeyboy) on Dec 5, 2009
LOL. Thanks for the entertaining commentary!#23: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 5, 2009
So I am finding myself too defensive to continue this conversation. I will simply state that *I* do not feel that the negativity is necessary. That *I* feel that there is an overwhelming negativity in the many comments. Not all, but many. I don't want to argue, and I didn't mean to offend anyone, it's not my style. I think I will just have to avoid the comments as to limit my exposure to it.#24: Cro-Magnon (Hermit) on Dec 6, 2009
PS-I will still be reading this so if someone addresses me directly I will respond, unless they are attacking me, in which case I will just ignore it.
I'm not offended. I think this topic is worthy of discussion! Personally, I've learned a lot from this thread. But the subject should be discussed calmly and with a cool head, I think.#25: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 6, 2009
Rudeness itself is often subjective. And that might be part of the reason behind some of the disagreements. What's rude to me might not be rude to you, and vice versa.
Profanity is a classic example. Personally, I have no problem with it. But some people might be really offended by it. So, I usually proofread my comments to make sure I didn't let an expletive fly. (I can be a, um, 'potty-mouth').
Sarcasm is another example. Some people 'get it', others don't.
I do think that it is unreasonable to expect this site, and the comments on it, to all be positive. Not all of us are sugary sweet. I'm certainly not. But I also don't think I'm a jerk, though some people might disagree. :-) Anyway, I also think it is unreasonable to think this is a place to be outwardly offensive. But once again, it's subjective, and who decides what is offensive?
Jan has stated that he doesn't want to censor or limit free speech on this site. It's his site, his rules. Personally, I would expect that would lead to a much more aggressive feel to the site, with lots of out-of-control arguments and 'flame wars'. To my surprise, this doesn't seem to have happened. To me, the majority of comments are positive and supportive. (Sometimes they are almost TOO positive, as I've stated earlier). There's the odd spat or feud here or there, but compared to most forums of open discussion, I think things here are overall quite civil.
I too can let the expletives fly. ;-)#26: Jan Wolter (jan) on Dec 6, 2009
My experience has been, that people on the boards have been very helpful, but the majority of the time that I check comments on a puzzle, there are several rude ones. Ones have that actually given me pause about making puzzles. There are 7k+ puzzles on here, maybe it's just my lot that I seem to see the more negative ones.
I have never once said or even hinted that all the comments should be happy and filled with rainbows and hot air. But when you reading someone verbally assault a ten year old because they think their puzzle is a waste of time...it kinda makes you think.
My best friend when I was a kid was a guy whose chief joy in life was coming up with witty insults to sling at people. This never bothered me particularly, since I was born with a thick skin. (Believe it or not, though I grew up with what is universally considered a "girl's name" in the US, I have no recollection of any kid ever teasing me about it. I presume my lack of reaction to such teasing made it go away.) But some other people rather suffered under my friends constant insults and the dog jokes directed at a kid named "Kalle" who cringed under every one got seriously old. Interesting thing was visiting my friend's home. The whole family, mom, dad and kids, spent the whole day flinging clever insults at each other. It was just the way people talked in that household. Nothing these people ever said to each other would have passed in my family's house.#27: Jota (jota) on Dec 6, 2009
So people's standards on this are wildly different. What seems rude to some people just seems normal to others. What hurts one person, passes unnoticed by another. So I'm not surprised by the very different perceptions of these forums that people have.
My sharp tongued friend seems to have grown up to be a veterinarian. I suppose dogs don't mind a sharp tongue so long as you have a good heart. Sensitive Kalle is a professor of Biochemistry at a major university. I perform short spurts of hard work in random directions, adding up to darned little. Maybe caring more about impressing people would have helped me live a more impressive life. I disagree completely that "everyone should be insensitive to these things." Sensitivity can be a weakness, but it can also be a strength. It's not bad to care when people say hurtful things about you. It's a little scary to not care.
@ # 23 Cecily: Just to be clear, I'm not offended.#28: Teresa K (fasstar) on Dec 6, 2009
@ # 24 Cro: I totally agree with every word you said.
Opinions about a puzzle are one thing, personal insults are another. To say a puzzle is a WOT or not much fun, or has a not-so-good image, or that several puzzles in a row of poor quality are irritating - those are just opinions about the puzzles, and are not personal attacks on anyone's character.#29: Adam Nielson (monkeyboy) on Dec 6, 2009
Adam wrote a comment on one of my puzzles once, using BORING and HORRIBLE to describe parts of the puzzle. Did I feel devensive? Sure, I spent a lot of time making that puzzle and I thought it was good. Did I take it personally? Of course not. I fixed the part he thought was horrible and stove to make better quality puzzles, because I enjoy pleasing all the puzzlers here. I think it's important to share the negative as well as the positive. In my experience, on all the puzzles I have solved, the comments are overwhelmingly positive.
Jan, to us here on webpbn, your life-work-productivity is quite impressive! :-)
Teresa, I would like to know what puzzle that was that you were referring to, because I really don't remember. I am not doubting you at all. It must have been pretty bad if I said that, because when I think of your puzzles, I think of some of the few top-rate and fun ones on this site. I am curious to know what specifically I critiqued.#30: Teresa K (fasstar) on Dec 6, 2009
But you know what? You took that puzzle and apparently improved upon it. In fact, I can't remember writing anything negative about your puzzles at all. At least nothing in a long time. You do great work on here, and I hope I let you know that in my comments. You didn't take things personally, as many others are apt to do.
I also ditto #24, especially the parts about sarcasm, and rudeness being subjective. People are all different, with different backgrounds, philosophies, and attitudes.
For example, I think it is more offensive to lie to someone (praising them for their puzzles, when they obviously do not merit any such praise) than to be honest and let them know what they could do better to improve.
Yet others think it's better to lead people on, with lines such as "good job," or "keep up the good work," or "I really enjoyed this," etc., when more often than not, it is not the case. They are just trying to be nice and protect the feelings of such puzzle makers, yet that encourages further work of the same poor caliber.
Did anyone ever think that maybe the puzzle creator doesn't even read the comments? There are a few of the users on here, known for their poor work, that never respond to the comments. They may read them, they may not. Since they don't comment, we may never know. Yet they often continue to spew forth much of the same junk.
I was taught to not lie. And I really try not to. The phrase "honesty is the best policy" still applies. At least it should.
In my mind, I am right in my views. In your mind, you are right. Neither will convince the other, but that's not the point. Let's not argue this anymore, since it will get nowhere. The deal that should be extended is this: I won't criticize your falsely sweet, pampering praise, and you won't criticize my negative honesty. I will also throw in the "no attack against people directly" clause, to both parties.
Will that make everyone happier? There has to be some sort of compromise, since crappy puzzles will always be produced, and negativity will always accompany it. We just all have to deal with adversity in life. All of us.
Adam, it was puzzle #4184: Psychedelic Experience. One of my earlier puzzles. As I said, you were specific about what you didn't like, and also about what you did like. And when I corrected the "horrible" part, you made a positive comment. I am always appreciative of yours and anyone else's constructive criticism.#31: Adam Nielson (monkeyboy) on Dec 6, 2009
BTW, to anyone who cares, I don't think that "being ten" is any kind of excuse for impulsivity, bad spelling, creating boring puzzles ("I was bord") or ignoring the guidelines Jan has posted for creating puzzles.
Two of my children have brain damage and below normal IQ and have the emotional-social development of a first grader, but I have never let them use that as an excuse to be annoying, inconsiderate, or inappropriate.
I just asked my mentally challenged daughter to spell the word bored as in "I'm bored" and she spelled it correctly. When she was ten, she carried around a dictionary with her, so when she read a word she did not understand, she could look it up.
My kids know how to give honest, candid feedback (even when it is not requested or expected - LOL). I respect them for that.
Jan, thanks for making this forum open and unrestricted. I enjoy reading all the comments, no matter what the intention or tone. I try to learn from the interaction and to become a better person as a result.
Thanks, Teresa. I have no recollection of writing that, nor of the puzzle itself, LOL. But that was an excellent example of a teaching point, agreed?#32: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 6, 2009
100% ditto your second paragraph.
So I wasn't going to add anymore to this discussion but this is bothering, I have not once asked for all comments to be "falsely sweet, pampering praise" and several times there have been points about comments being too happy and nice. I, not once said that I thought they should be that way. So I would really appreciate if people would stop making the assumption that is what I want. It isn't.#33: Jen (LightVader) on Dec 6, 2009
I have made comments on puzzles, some have been nice and some have been clinical, but none have been rude. That is my issue.
Let me ask something, Teresa, would you have still made the changes you made to that puzzle, that Adam suggested, if he hadn't been insulting and called it boring and horrible? I'm going to guess that you would have, because like you said you put a lot of time and effort into it and you wanted it to be the best that it could be. If I am correct about that, the only thing that him being rude did was offend you. And that is my point. I absolutely agree that suggestions and advice can and should be given for puzzles, it's only the rude part of it that bothers me. But if I am wrong and it took him offending you to get you to want to change your puzzle then I stand corrected.
@26 My house is a lot like the one you described Jan. My brothers are still young so most of it is PG, along the lines of dork, and loser. Rusty bucket is reserved for my father. The one most commonly directed at me is geek, often with my comeback being that geeks will rule the world.#34: Adam Nielson (monkeyboy) on Dec 6, 2009
Outside of my home though, I hold back any insults or comebacks and the like until I know my audience and what they may or may not find offensive.
Cecily, I never said anything directly to you about you wanting certain types of comments. What I wrote was to everyone in general who posts those types of comments. If you are not one of those type of people, then my comments were not directed at you. You assumed that I was speaking to you and only you. This is how arguments and "pissing wars" (as Sylvain likes to describe them, LOL) begin. Don't worry, I won't start one with you.#35: Teresa K (fasstar) on Dec 6, 2009
I am going to continue to be myself, and have fun on here. I enjoy solving puzzles, occasionally creating them, and posting comments. Many others do as well. Each person has fun in his or her own way. Please don't take offense if a comment bothers you, especially when it wasn't even remotely aimed at you in the first place. Just like Cro, I love to joke around and be sarcastic. There are many others like that here as well.
People can choose their own emotions, and they can choose how to respond to any given situation. If you get offended or upset by something that was said, then if I were you, I would try and work on that. Or choose to ignore me. Those are just a few suggestions to try and help you not feel so upset. I have no problem with you personally. How could I? I don't know you. If you are upset with things I write, then so be it. I hope not, though.
No one is really going to change. I know that it would be useless for me to try and get you to see things my way, so I won't. We can just agree to disagree. And we should leave it at that. No hard feelings?
Cecily, to answer your question - No I would not have made any changes to the puzzle if Adam had not make his comments. I was startled by his criticism, but I did not perceive it as rude (you labeled it as such). He was giving an opinion of my puzzle in a way that helped me see how it could be improved. There is another individual whose comments I definitely perceive as very rude (as have others), but you don't seem to have mentioned that person, whose comments are anything but constructive.#36: Byrdie (byrdie) on Dec 6, 2009
I look forward to reading comments by certain individuals, like Jan, Jota, Adam, JoDeen, and now Cro (yeah, Cavewman!). They can be so clever and witty. I wish I had their sense of humor. I do like how they can make me smile. I just try to make people smile with my puzzles.
I'm hurt, Teresa. You don't look forward to reading my comments.#37: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 7, 2009
PS - Tongue is implanted firmly in cheek.
Cecily - This is not meant to be hurtful. The fact that you had intended to stop posting in this forum but found something bothering enough to add one more comment is indicative of the issue. Please allow things to roll off you like water off a duck's back. Try not to take statements so personally. If someone's comments are that hurtful, they aren't worth the time and effort it takes to respond.
As far as not creating puzzles because you're concerned about the type of comments they might garner, that's silly. First of all, I highly doubt you'll create the type of puzzles that would get "rude comments" simply because you're so concerned about it, you'd take the time to make wonderful and challenging puzzles. If fact, you'd probably work too hard on them.
As you may have seen me say in some other forums, I've been participating in the online community since before the advent of the internet. I'd guess you may have been as well. The point I'm heading towards is that in all that time I've learned that it's difficult to read inflection and it's rediculous for me to apply my own to something that someone else has written and assume that it's true. Frankly, I don't have the time or energy to concern myself with what, in reality, is a make believe world with make believe characters. I highly doubt anyone is exactly the image of themselves that they portray here, including me. For sure in real life I'm not this funny, this cool, or this wise. For that reason, taking any of it to heart is purely an excercise in frustration.
I'm going to guess that you're neither ready nor willing to take advice on life lessons from me. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize. However, I'm still going to suggest that you ease up a little and not take the comments so seriously. I forget the latin (and I'm sure someone will supply it) but my step-mother has a latin phrase taped to the wall over her computer. It basically translates to "Never let the bastards get you down." Definitely good advice in this environment.
Now, I'd rather go solve PBNs. Even Cro can't get me to post in here again.
Teresa, I am very confused, because I could have sworn that this read 'offended'.#38: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 7, 2009
"Did I feel devensive? Sure"
I normally notice spelling mistakes and don't get how I missed that. So I apologize, I thought you had said that you were offended by him saying that it was boring and horrible, that is my fault.
Martin, you are absolutely right, it is incredibly hard for me to let some things roll off my back. It is actually something I am working on. And I actually tend to steer clear of all forums. I hate them. I can not attest to how you have behaved on this forum or any forum, because I haven't read it. That is why I kept my point to the comments, because that is what I have experienced. And no, I am not going to take life lessons from you, as you pointed out, I have no idea who you are.
BTW while I have seemed argumentative, I have taken away what all of you have been saying. I don't agree with all of it, but I do understand it a bit better.#39: Teresa K (fasstar) on Dec 7, 2009
Martin, first experience here today is you making me laugh! :-D Ah, my friend, I gladly add you to my list of favorite commentators here. (Oh - I feel a homophone inspiration coming on!)#40: Jota (jota) on Dec 7, 2009
Cecily. I felt defensive about my puzzle because I thought my puzzle was wonderful and my puzzle was criticized. Why should I feel offended? No one criticized me personally. See the difference? If the subject of the comment is my puzzle, I can feel defensive. If someone makes a nasty remark about me personally, then I might feel offended. But since I'm such a wonderful person, I will probably think anyone who attacks me personally either doesn't know me very well and/or has lots of personal problems that impair their ability to have positive social interactions.
If you do ask anyone else about how wonderful I am, just don't ask my two "Special" kids - they think I'm a mean mom. Ask the other kid - the gifted one - he is wonderful too. :-)
And anyone here would do well to take Martin's advice, because he is a wise and caring person with good insights into human nature.
Cecily: A year ago I worried about a similar subject and posted topic # 130. Would you read it and give us your opinion please?#41: Jota (jota) on Dec 7, 2009
Martin: I think you probably are: " this funny, this cool" and " this wise". I believe we are more ourselves here (Webpbn) than anywhere else because is basically us an the computer, no immediate frowns, long faces or criticism. We can be more spontaneous ... more comfortable with "who" we are.#42: Teresa K (fasstar) on Dec 7, 2009
Cecily, to whom are you addressing your question?#43: Cro-Magnon (Hermit) on Dec 7, 2009
Whew, this thread is flyin'; I can't keep up! Still, it's very informative, and there are many excellent points on both sides. Just a couple things:#44: Teresa K (fasstar) on Dec 7, 2009
Re#35: Who is this individual that is very rude? Clue the newbie in. Naw, you don't have to name name's. But, now I'm curious. ... ... Hey, wait a minute, did you call me a Cavewoman??? :-O LOL
Re#36: Hey, Martin, had they invented dirt yet? You know, back then before the internet. :-) Just kidding! Seriously, thanks for triggering some fond memories! Squeaky slow modems, monochrome screens, trying to find bulletin boards. I sometimes miss those days. Good old Usenet newsgroups, email mailing lists. Oh and then CompuServe came along. Wowee! Good times. :-)
Wow, most of that was entirely off topic. Sorry folks, I haven't slept in over 2 days, and there's a slight chance I've fallen completely off my rocker. Methinks I best go hide in my cave for a while.
No, Cro, I was calling you a Cave-Wow-Man - I saw you chasing that rude gal with your big club! :-D Now I'm wondering what kind of a rocker a caveman would have. One made of rocks? Or one big rock that you climb on and rock back and forth. I can see how it would be easy to fall off. Be careful. Get some sleep. Or have more java juice and entertain us some more.#45: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 7, 2009
Teresa, which question?#46: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 7, 2009
Jota, topic 130 does not seem to be there. It just skips from 129 to 131. :-(#47: Gator (Gator) on Dec 7, 2009
I clicked on Forum and selected All Topics from the dropbox, and Topic #130 is there.#48: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 7, 2009
It's totally not on my list. This topic and the other one I created about labels isn't on the list either. *shrug*#49: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 7, 2009
#127 My log-in date 14 / 14 Adam Nielson (monkey) Oct 10, 2008#50: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 7, 2009
#128 Brainbuster lets have some fun 20 / 20 Sylvain "WCPman" (qwerty) Oct 12, 2008
#129 This is my brainbuster answer 56 / 56 Sylvain "WCPman" (qwerty) Oct 12, 2008
#131 Finding Weekly Challenge Puzzles 15 / 15 Jennifer Jones (geekess) Nov 23, 2008
#132 Webpbn Puzzle Book? 32 / 32 Jan Wolter (jan) Nov 24, 2008
#133 Java Script 4 / 4 Adam Nielson (monkeyboy) Nov 26, 2008
I am so tired...my grammar is right out the door...I hope I can sleep tonight.#51: Teresa K (fasstar) on Dec 7, 2009
Cecily, my mistake, it was Jota's question, and that was probably directed at you.#52: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 7, 2009
As for finding topic #130, you have to choose from the pop up menu on the forum search page "All Topics" - then you will see all of them in number order. Get yourself a good night's sleep, and don't worry too much about all this. It's just not that important in the big scheme of things. Relax and enjoy solving the puzzles. Laugh at the funny comments, let go of the not so funny ones. That's the secret to enjoying life here on webpgn. :-)
OK Jota, I just wrote a freakin' paper commenting on topic #130. *lol*#53: Cro-Magnon (Hermit) on Dec 7, 2009
Re #44: LOL Teresa! Yeah, but I think my elf-prey is sad or mad now.#54: Jota (jota) on Dec 8, 2009
Fallen of my rock - dangit, why didn't I think of that?! Outsmarted me again. <grumble, grumble, grumble> :-)
I did get some sleep, but I certainly need more. But first, I'm going to go find some Random Fred puzzles. Maybe I'll bump into my prey there. Don't worry, I'll be nice... Ook, I'll *try* to be nice.
Thanks a lot Cecily (#52).#55: Cecily (TheLorax) on Dec 8, 2009
You're most welcome. I feel like I babbled, but it's probably the most coherent I have gotten my thoughts out on the subject. :-)#56: ant (agrest272) on Jan 2, 2010
Whoa after half a year on this site i finally stumble on to the forums.. and I thought there was drama in the puzzle comments!#57: Jota (jota) on Jan 2, 2010
Hmm I know this post is a month old but I felt the need to add my two cents on this one. Cecily I think what you're witnessing here is what's commonly known as trolling:
Basically you'll find that when people can hide behind the anonymity of a keyboard they tend to make comments that they would normally never make face to face. I can't imagine any adult telling a 10 year old child their art project is a waste of time to their face, but lo and behold you'll find it all the time online. I am all for honesty and I know people are going to say that they are just telling it like it is, but I just feel that there is a certain amount of restraint we use in person that gets blurred in a web forum setting. In any case, I think most people on this site are pretty harmless and are more trying to get a rise out of people than offend anyone.
I continue to stand by my WOT not to offend anyone but to give my opinion of a puzzle that has "offended" me. In my opinion, a PBN Puzzle is not an art project but a puzzle and if it has no white spaces, etc is a WOT.#58: Byrdie (byrdie) on Jan 2, 2010
PBN: Paint - by - number#59: ant (agrest272) on Jan 2, 2010
So it IS an art project that presents itself as a puzzle.
But I think I understand what Jota is saying and I agree that there are puzzles that are WOTs. I'm just not always sure what the best way to say it is. I'd like to encourage the youngsters that seem to be the concern here to create art instead of patterns rather than just barking at them.
I guess if you want to take my example literally, then let me rephrase to "I can't imagine any adult telling a 10 year old child that a word search they made in school is a waste of time simply because it's easy"#60: Sylvain "WCPman" (qwerty) on Jan 3, 2010
In my opinion the puzzles are a combination of art and logic, and striking a balance between the two is what makes them fun. I agree that there are puzzles that require no skill and are therefore unsatisfying, but I'm not sure how telling the author it's a waste of time is constructive.
I'm with you on the last sentence, Martin. Seems like a viable option could be sorting the puzzles between logical solves and visual solves?
In Jota's defense I have to say that in the majority of case adult are playing and creating on this website. yes a couple of member as of late are kids and it kinda rude to be hard on them but its a majority.#61: Cecily (TheLorax) on Jan 4, 2010
A topic exist on how to create a puzzle and thing you should look for while doing so. If you want to create a puzzle take the time to read it before.
The WOT comment can be see as rude by some but if we take in consideration that you are old enought to solve and create puzzle here you are old enought to read the creation advise topic, and you should be old enougt to take critic even if this critic is a little hard in the delivery
I *personally* find WOT to be offensive. I don't disagree that there are many puzzles on here that are in fact just that. And that there are some creators that only make that type of puzzle. But I still can't bring myself to go there. And that is a personal choice. I find it offensive, so I don't do it. I do think that *some* of the creators that make those types of puzzles do it on purpose to get a rise out of those that choose to express their displeasure with them. And so makes a cycle of bad puzzles and rude comments.#62: Teresa K (fasstar) on Jan 4, 2010
As for the child and the comments that follow. There were comments about how they misspelled 'bored' and that has now become a joke in other topics and comment threads, and I find it personally insulting. No one here knows that, nor should they have known that as they don't know my family. But my 12 year old has struggled with reading and spelling since she started school at 2. She has been tested for dyslexia and learning disabilities, put in special class, has one on one tutoring. She gets a lot of attention and help to help improve her skills. Her father is an English major and works with her constantly, but it just hasn't clicked with her. I keep hoping that one day it will just fix itself. So I find the mocking of a 10 year old for misspelling a word to not only be incredibly low, but personally offensive, and it isn't even my child.
There are some sincerely nice people here, but there are others that have no desire to be kind. It is what it is.
(If you couldn't tell I am working on Zen this year)
"WOT" is merely a descriptor for a puzzle and is not a reflection of the person who created the puzzle. I "personally" appreciate honest criticisms of my puzzles, as I can then use those comments to help me create better puzzles. If I were 10 years old, well, then maybe I would feel bad. And then I would want to learn how to make a better puzzle. :-)#63: ant (agrest272) on Jan 4, 2010
I can understand your sensitivity for your child who has learning disabilities. I raised two, and it has not been easy. However, their learning disabilities did not prevent them from using the dictionary, asking a nearby adult for help, or for looking over their work before handing it in.
This is an adult site. There are puzzlers of all ages, but it is primarily an adult site. Jan has allowed users to make comments without policing for manners and political correctness. Children using an adult site can be protected from perceived offensiveness by close monitoring. Jan is a good role model for us parents, as he sat next to his son while he allowed him to create a puzzle, and obviously guided him through the process, and warned everyone right away that this was a child's creation.
A child with learnign disorders might benefit more from sites that build self esteem rather than make him/her feel bad. Perhaps there are some other sites that are child friendly where your child could create artsy things. Here are a few links:
and my favorite: http://chir.ag/stuff/sand/
I'm not sure I agree that 'WOT' is a descriptor for a puzzle, nor do I see it as a criticism, constructive or otherwise. A criticism usually points out faults or flaws, and I can't find any critique in saying that something is a waste of time other than being a jab at the creator. If you can honestly say that you wouldn't be offended if someone told you something you do or create was nothing but a 'waste of time' then you've got some stone skin I guess :)#64: Cecily (TheLorax) on Jan 5, 2010
Teresa, I did say it wasn't my kid that posted the puzzle, I won't let my kids on this site because of the rudeness level. I do monitor my children. And my child does not have a learning disability, but she does make spelling mistakes. As do all children. Heck I am sure that I could go through the forum here and find plenty of adults that have made spelling errors. I find berating and belittling a 10 year old for making a spelling mistake to be despicable and the sign of an adult who has some serious issues.#65: Teresa K (fasstar) on Jan 5, 2010
Ant, I completely agree with you. Thank you for putting it in words that I could not find.
I'm sorry, Cecily. It's been a long discussion, and I forgot that you were defending someone else's child. My mistake. Memory deficits - that's my mental disability. :-)#66: Amber (vixen82) on Jan 5, 2010
My comment about monitoring children on the Internet was meant for parents in general. You are to be commended for being one of the wise parents who monitors their children at the computer.
Ant, I may have thicker skin than most people, as I grew up with six brothers. :-) But actually, I think I'm normally sensitive to the remarks of others. I'm not saying that negative comments don't bother me, just that I try to tell myself that the opinions of others are not a reflection of my character. As a parent of children whose disabilities include severe behavior issues, I have often been judged harshly about my parenting, and my kids have been judged harshly about their disabilities. We get a lot of practice trying let negative opinions of others roll off. Notice I said "try." I hope I don't have to put that into practice anytime soon. :-D
Since everyone is putting in their 2 cents on this subject i would like to direct your attention to the comments on my puzzle #4133 made by a 3 year old with very little help from myself... Her excitement with aunt bers new game went up 10 levels when i read the comments to her... I thank those who made the comments and appreciate that they understood why i let her make a puzzle. i have seen some rude comments but i wanted to show that there are SOOOO MANY who give such great feedback and comments and i appreciate every one (even on my overdone flag puzzle)#67: Wombat (wombatilim) on Jan 6, 2010
Thank you again
Agree with #63 entirely.#68: Cro-Magnon (Hermit) on Jan 7, 2010
"Waste of time" is very much an opinion, and not at all constructive as a form of criticism, as it does not provide suggestions for improvement, or even an explanation for the opinion. While I have agreed with "WOT" every time I have seen it, telling a puzzle's creator WHY it is a waste of time is infinitely more helpful.
On the other hand, those puzzles tend to come from inexperienced puzzle creators, who probably have no idea what WOT even means.
Besides, it seems that replaying to a WOT puzzle with a WOT comment is an additional WOT.
<pokes head out of cave>#69: Jota (jota) on Jan 7, 2010
I translate WOT as "this 'puzzle' is a waste of time". (puzzle in quotes since WOT's are typically not even puzzles) ;-) I interpret WOT as a reference to the puzzle, NOT as an attack on the creator.
Just *try* to consider this: Is it not rude for someone to repeatedly make nonsense non-puzzles because they were bored? Or because they failed to read the information on puzzle creation? Or they chose to ignore puzzle creation advice, or whatever reason? Just a thought.
Personally, WOT-type comments have often saved me from wasting my time with yet another 'Random Fred' puzzle. ;-)
Chapeau!#70: doreen (doreenfanning) on Jan 8, 2010
I would guess that most of us on this site are "wasting our time."#71: ant (agrest272) on Jan 8, 2010
This is not a site in which the world's problems are being solved. My guess is that most of us are here to relax and pick around at solving puzzles.
The whole idea that some puzzles are a waste of time is ridiculous to me. Sometimes I am in the mood for a puzzle that is rote, easy and not very proficient in some ways.
When I am here I am taking my chances. I can "waste my time" in a variety of ways.
Writing this post is one way of wasting my time.
Haha I'm with you there doreen, this site is a huge free time filler for me.#72: Cro-Magnon (Hermit) on Jan 11, 2010
I still feel that calling someone's puzzle, which is essentially a direct output of their time and effort, a 'waste of time' as a jab towards the creator.
I see what you are saying with the argument that the inexperienced puzzle makers are just as bad because they are inexperienced/ignorant etc. I don't know that I would call them rude in particular, unless they are repeatedly making pointless puzzles despite the behest of others.
I don't think there's really a clear cut solution to any of it. Since this site has virtually no rules about puzzle creation, and there are probably tons of kids solving these puzzles (although most people posting and complaining seem to be adults), it's just going to be one of those things people have to get used to.
I like to waste my time doing puzzles. Emphasis on PUZZLES. I don't like my time wasting being interrupted or further wasted by a non-puzzle. If I wanted to waste my time coloring, I would go do that. ;-)#73: Jota (jota) on Jan 11, 2010
If someone enjoys no-white-space and random patterns of colors, then I suppose they can say they liked it. If someone did not like it, and found it tedious and a waste of time, then why can't they also say that? Why does saccharine have to be the default choice? Besides, simply saying a 'puzzle' is nice, cute, or whatever isn't exactly constructive either. ;-)
Just trying to point out the other side of the coin.
Back to the cave!
Cro! Cro Cro! Rah Rah Rah!!!! Give me a C, give me an R, give me an O!#74: Cro-Magnon (Hermit) on Jan 11, 2010
(Confetti all over)
LOL! Hooray, I have a fan. It's a small fan club though. The club meets on the first Wednesday of every month, but I think you'll have to bring your own coffee since you might be the only member!#75: Jota (jota) on Jan 12, 2010
Tomorrow it is!#76: Eludwar (elfluvsdwarf) on Jan 12, 2010
Nobody is going to convince the mean people that they are actually mean and the mean people are never going to convince their accusers that they are also right. The same words go back and forth making both points valid. In the end it comes down to the fact that you're going to make a decision one way or another and while others may share in your decision it's still an individual decision that governs your own choices not anybody else's. This frakkin debate has been on-going since this site's birth and quite frankly I'm sick of it.#77: Jan Wolter (jan) on Jan 12, 2010
Make the choice about what you want to write or don't write in the comments and that's that. Jan has strong beliefs against censorship and no "rule" is ever going to be set. It's a free-for-all no matter the effect.
It's still valuable to talk about it. Sure, no discussion of the subject is going to make everything go perfectly from then on, if only because nobody really agrees on what perfection would be like, but these discussions do cause people to think over what they have been doing, and many people will modify their behavior to a greater or lesser degree. Just because Jota isn't falling down weeping and pledging never ever to say "WOT" again, doesn't mean that the discussion isn't worth having. The debates may be never ending, but that doesn't mean they are futile.#78: Cecily (TheLorax) on Jan 12, 2010
I agree Jan. I think this discussion has been constructive on both sides of the coin. I really understand both points of view on what type of puzzle are enjoyable to do. Mainly because I enjoy doing the entire range of puzzles. There are sometimes I just want to do the Red Fred puzzles and feel the accomplishment of knocking one out right after the other, and then there are time when I want to challenge my brain and work on a puzzle that is going to me a half an hour. I can see easier how/why people don't think some of what they say is offensive, and I have said my peace as to why I don't think it's appropriate. And for the most part it's been a healthy discussion.
Goto next topic
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